Forum Archive : Propositions

Fifteen on the bar From:   Pete Address:   peteg@garlic.com Date:   11 November 2002 Subject:   A Proposition Game Forum:   rec.games.backgammon Google:   ut13ik71c0lbc1@corp.supernews.com Back in the 70's when I used to play a lot in various clubs, we had a proposition game, but I don't recall the name of it. One side would start in the normal position, and the other side would start with all 15 men in the air. If I remember it right, the first side gave about 7 to 1 money odds to the other side (depending on negotiation skills). The cube was used as normal. Player A (15 on the bar) has the easier time to play his checkers. In fact most of his play is pretty automatic, no-brainer types. Generally the way these games go is that B hits everything in sight without any care in the world. He hopes that A rolls a 6 with one of his dice. Both sides are hoping for small doubles to make points in B's inner board. If A managed to make the 1 and 2 (or 3 points) then he basically has a won game. In fact, I don't think B can take a double. Is the game still played? Anybody recall the name, or other details? Pete Douglas Zare  writes: I've seen n:1 odds given one some props, such as winning while closed out, or winning against 14 off. I've seen points per game offered for a prop with the cube in play. However, what do you mean by 7 to 1 money odds with the cube used as normal? 3/4 of a point paid with a centered cube? Douglas Zare Nobody  writes: If I win the game, you pay me $1/point. If you win, I pay you $7/point. But I will insist that the Jacoby rule not be used. :-) This prop was played by various people at the Novi tournament this year (at 6:1 or 7:1; I forget). There are a few things to learn about the checkerplay in this position, but it mostly seems to be about handling the cube properly, which is nontrivial at the payoff odds. The prop is good practice for playing the snake. Douglas Zare  writes: I don't think the finer points of rolling home an outside prime should matter much. Most people would have no idea what to do with the doubling cube when playing at odds. (Should you take if you win 50% and your opponent is paid 7:1? Yes, even if it were 7:0. You should pass at 7:1 if you only win 40% single games, though.) That said, I'm sure there is a lot of skill involved in just the checker play, and I think this would be an interesting prop by ordinary rules. Michael Sullivan  writes: I'm realizing propositions like this would be incredible hustler's games. If you're competent and have thought a lot about how to use the cube at odds, you'd have a big advantage over someone who has not, even if they are a better player in general. It would certainly be good practice for backgames and what to do when way behind. Douglas Zare  writes: > It would certainly be good practice for backgames and what to do when > way behind. I disagree. Most backgames that arise in practice do not involve 15 checkers back. If you have 15 checkers back, certain things are very different from if you have only 5, 8, or even 12 checkers back. You can kill/damage most deep-anchor backgames by priming them, but if 15 checkers are back that only threatens to make your opponent release the backwards anchor(s). Quite different tactics kill backgames with 15 checkers back. Most backgames do not produce full primes in the outer boards, but it is an important strategy here. Most backgames produce some chances to run off the backgammon in case the other side clears points early, but that tends to be hopeless here. Most backgames allow you to choose to break anchors in order to produce more shots (say, when your opponent has 12 off and 3 checkers on the 3 point), but here you might easily end up with 8 checkers on a point you would like to break. Ronald van Tiggelen  writes: I remember something like this but with some different details. 15 on the bar: right opponent does not have opening position but 3 checkers on 6,5,4,3, and 2-pt. Here comes the catch: side on bar starts AND does not roll but can CALL his roll. With this catch the seemingly hopeless side was thought to have 7 to 1 winning chances indeed. This prop was played only against not-knowing people. Any shot will be hit and almost always rolled home. Hope this helped. Ronald van Tiggelen. akaYETI on GG   Did you find the information in this article useful?           Do you have any comments you'd like to add?

 

Propositions

Choose roll vs. double roll  (Larry Deckel, Jan 1997) 

Choose roll vs. double-roll  (Rafy Marootians+, Mar 1994) 

Eight checkers vs. fifteen  (Raccoon, Feb 2006) 

Fifteen on the bar  (Pete+, Nov 2002) 

Monte Carlo 1998  (Daniel Murphy, Feb 2006) 

No ones  (Murat Kalinyaprak, Oct 2002) 

Opening 11 vs. Owning the cube  (Bob Ebbeler+, Aug 1999) 

Tino Road Position  (Arthur+, Apr 2005) 

Up in the air  (Daniel Murphy, Feb 2006) 

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