Forum Archive : Rulings

Premature actions From:   Raccoon Date:   29 February 2008 Subject:   Premature actions shall stand Forum:   GammOnLine Who can ever get enough premature action? You're playing under the rule that the ABT recently adopted: 4.6 PREMATURE ACTIONS. All premature actions (dice rolls or cube actions) shall stand if otherwise valid. An opponent who has yet to complete his turn or act upon the cube may then do so with foreknowledge of the premature action. --- Here's a position from rec.games.backgammon. X is on roll. 24 23 22 21 20 19 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | O O | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +---+ | X X X | | | | 2 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 A1. While X is on roll, X doubles, then O rolls 6-4, then O takes. Ruling? A2. While X is on roll, O rolls 2-1. Ruling? A3. While X is on roll, O rolls 6-4. Ruling? --- Here's another position. X is on roll. 24 23 22 21 20 19 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | O O | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | X | | | | X | | | | X | | | +---+ | X | | | | 2 | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ +---+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 B1. While X is on roll, X doubles, O rolls 5-2, then takes. Ruling? B2. While X is on roll, X doubles, O does not act, X rolls 6-6. Ruling? B3. While X is on roll, X doubles, O does not act, X rolls 2-1. Ruling? Tom Keith  writes: The premature actions rule is obviously supposed to benefit the innocent party, not the transgressor, so you can't let a player take or drop when he knows what his own next roll will be. A simple way to rule in such cases might be: "Rolls out of turn don't count." In other words, if it is your opponent's turn and you roll the dice before your opponent has rolled, your roll doesn't count; you pick up the dice until it's your turn. In a different example, suppose you pick up the dice to end your turn, go to put the dice in the dice cup but miss and the dice slip out onto the board. This wouldn't be considered a premature roll because your opponent hasn't rolled yet. Raccoon  writes: Tom's suggestion would mean a hybrid rule: a premature roll stands if opponent's dice are on the table, but a premature roll is void if opponent has not yet rolled. That rule would mean that the premature roll would not stand in Cases A-1, A-2, A-3 and B-1. It would not apply at all to Cases B-2 and B-3. In Cases A-1, A-3 and B-1, Tom's suggested rule and my own ruling coincide. In Case A-2, Tom's suggestion is, effectively, the old ABT rule that premature rolls are void. Whether these examples illustrate a defect in Rule 4.6, or in its wording, or in its application, I leave to the powers that be. I personally remain steadfast in support of the Danish rule on premature actions -- that they stand if and only if the nonoffending player wish them to stand. That rule is responsive to a question that may have suggested itself to you; is it the director's job to determine the equity of a position and how a premature action affects that equity? The Danish rule leaves that determination up to the nonoffending player. But I'm very convinced that to rule that the premature actions stand in all six cases because "that's what Rule 4.6 says" would be, in my opinion, a really bad decision. Stein Kulseth  writes: A1. By rolling (prematurely), O has implied that he also takes, so the taking after the roll is not only allowed, but also required. The roll stands, and X can just hope to get lucky. Note that in the corresponding case: X doubles, O rolls 21 (prematurely); O cannot drop, the take is implied, and O suffers. A2. O has implied that he will take any double, and his roll will stand. When X doubles, as he would and should, O must take and suffer his 21 roll A3. O has implied that he will take any double, and his roll will stand. However X has no obligation to double, and probably won't B1. Same as A1, equivalent to taking and rolling. The take and the roll stands. B2. X's premature roll stands, O is allowed to drop on the info from the premature roll. B3. X's premature roll stands, O is allowed to take on the info from the premature roll Steve Mellen  writes: I can see the argument that if you roll when you are supposed to be acting on the cube, a take is implied, but I can't imagine that a roll when it's your opponent's turn implies that you will take any cube even though it hasn't been offered. That sounds like too big a stretch to me. Stein Kulseth  writes: Maybe, but it seems to depend on exactly what is meant by the slightly vague phrase "... if otherwise valid" . In position A1, where Blue has turned the cube, White will get to roll a valid roll if and only if he takes. Thus the premature roll can be viewed as "otherwise valid", as it is within White's power to make it valid -- by taking. The other interpretation that might make sense is to view a roll prior to making a requested take/drop action is not valid, and must be rerolled. Under this interpretation the ruling would be: Pos A1 and B1. White's premature roll is not "otherwise valid" as he must decide on the take/drop prior to rolling. If he decides to take, he must reroll. Pos A2 and A3. White's premature roll is valid only if Blue does not double. In this position it doesn't seem to make much difference, as Blue just doubles White out anyway. However, in other positions it might make a difference, eg. if Blue didn't have a proper double, he may want to double in order to invalidate a good premature white roll -- and would be in his right to do so. Pos B2 and B3. As before, the roll stands, White may take/drop based on the roll. Gregg Cattanach  writes: One simple way to rule is that the dice roll is actually TWO moves early (his first 'move' is to act on the cube, the second 'move' is to roll the dice if he takes). Such actions are NOT otherwise valid (you can't roll until you've decided to take or pass), so the dice roll doesn't have any meaning and the dice are picked up. Scenario 1: Blue doubles, White doesn't act on the double, White rolls. White's roll is two actions into the future (it shouldn't happen until White acts and Blue rolls). So it has no meaning (is not 'otherwise valid') and is does not 'stand'. The game proceeds as normal with White acting on the cube and Blue rolling. Scenario 2: Blue doubles, White doesn't act, Blue rolls. This is just one action premature, so this roll stands. In both scenarios the premature roller can't gain.   Did you find the information in this article useful?           Do you have any comments you'd like to add?

 

Rulings

Checker knocked off bar  (Chuck Bower+, Sept 2003) 

Clock rules and gin positions  (Chris Yep+, Dec 2007) 

Clock rules end of turn  (Jason Lee+, Dec 2007) 

Cocked dice  (Rodney Lighton+, July 2012) 

Cocked dice  (Ed Rosenblum+, Dec 2009) 

Cocked dice  (Chuck Bower+, July 2003) 

Cocked die on first roll  (Cloyd Laporte+, Nov 2006) 

Crawford game double  (Øystein Johansen+, June 2004) 

Crawford game double  (Joe+, May 2004) 

Crawford game double  (Raccoon+, Sept 2003) 

Crawford game double  (Claes Thornberg+, Apr 1998) 

Dice sliding  (Chris Yep+, Dec 2007) 

Disagreement on final cube  (Chuck Bower+, May 2004) 

Disagreement over cocked dice  (DeaconBlue+, May 2005) 

Disputed roll  (Roland Scheicher+, Mar 2004) 

Disputed roll  (Chuck Bower+, Mar 2000) 

Doubling to wrong value  (Stein Kulseth+, Nov 1998) 

Equipment changes  (Jason Lee+, Feb 2004) 

Error in setup  (Stick+, Dec 2007) 

Incorrect setup  (Ken+, Mar 2004) 

Kibitzing  (Ilia Guzei+, Feb 2006) 

Misplaced cube  (Ned Cross+, Mar 2004) 

Misplacing a checker off the board  (Sam Pottle+, Apr 2006) 

Misplacing a checker on the bar  (Jeb Horton, Dec 2002) 

Moving checkers before you roll  (Gregg Cattanach+, Mar 2006) 

Moving with two hands  (Jason Lee+, Jan 2011) 

Opening roll loser picks up his die  (Chuck Bower+, Oct 2007) 

Playing to wrong match length  (Klaus Evers+, Jan 2006) 

Playing to wrong match length  (Marty Storer+, Mar 2005) 

Playing to wrong match length  (Steve Mellen, Feb 1998) 

Playing wrong opponent  (Hank Youngerman+, Oct 2005) 

Premature actions  (Raccoon+, Feb 2008) 

Premature roll  (Chris Yep+, Dec 2007) 

Repositioning dice without notice  (Chuck Bower+, Oct 2007) 

Rerolling cocked dice too quickly  (Raccoon+, Nov 2006) 

Rolling 2 dice instead of 1 to start  (Bob Koca+, Oct 2007) 

Rolling when opponent is closed out  (Raccoon+, Nov 2006) 

Rolling wrong dice  (TarHeelFan+, Sept 2005) 

Taking photos of positions  (Stick+, Dec 2007) 

Touching the doubling cube  (Ken Bame+, Nov 2006) 

Touching the doubling cube  (Chuck Bower+, Apr 1998) 

Two cubes on the board  (Jason Lee+, July 2005) 

Video dispute resolution  (Jason Lee+, Feb 2006) 

When are the dice "up"?  (Ilia Guzei+, Feb 2006) 

Writing down positions  (Klaus Evers+, Jan 2006) 

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